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anything like a formal report, as she is required to do
arch of.
by the Council.
Dick: Right. Gary Zempel was the Arch-Druid after Frangquist.
A large part of the animosity at that time is attributable
The first three Arch-Druids were Fisher, Nelson, and
certainly to deep differences in spiritual matters, but
Frangquist, and they became Patriarchs of their high
also to a bad lack of communication. It s exactly that
orders in that single day back in  64. As sort of a mat-
sort of thing that the Provisional Council was to try to
ter of course, the Sixth Order elected Zempel, the next
correct. But the Provisional Council really didn t meet
Arch-Druid, to be the next Patriarch. But Zempel never
the needs of anybody, so it died fairly soon. It didn t
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selected any other priests to his order, and not too long written following the invasion of Cambodia. Obviously
after he left Carleton, he sort of dropped out. At one international politics was on your mind at the time.
point, he felt that he should do something about the
fact that the line of higher orders had stopped there,
Dick: The Exorcism.
and mentioned to me that he wanted to be considered
as retired, and somebody else should be appointed as
Eric: An Exorcism, that s right. There; it s a long question;
Seventh Order [Patriarch]. So I wrote to Frangquist,
run with it!
the Patriarch of the next order down, which is respon-
sible for electing the Seventh Order Patriarch, and said,
Dick: In the mid sixties several things happened at Carleton.
 Well, Gary doesn t think that he s Patriarch anymore,
In the earlier sixties, about the time that Druidism was
or doesn t want to be considered Patriarch anymore.
founded, various requirements were being abolished,
This is your bailiwick; if you want to do anything about
like the religious attendance requirement. In my fresh-
it, fine. And nothing happened. I didn t expect any-
man year convocation requirement, the requirement
thing to happen. As far as I m concerned, he s still
that you attend the convocations, was abrogated. In the
Seventh Order Patriarch, and there are no other Sev-
early sixties a lot of these in loco parentis things were
enth Order priests, and it s ending there. It s not a big
falling, and there was a great deal of animosity between
deal for me. It was for Isaac.
the student body and particularly the Dean of Men s
Office, to some extent to President Nason as well, be-
Eric: There have from time to time been other orders cre-
cause and, I feel, rightly the students resented these
ated, besides the numerical things, some of them not
things as not being an appropriate part of an adult
within the RDNA structure, but others  possibly
educational experience.
within. The Archives includes something from a per-
son who was a Carleton Arch-Druid, at least during
I was not really part of that. A large part of this bitter-
the summer of 1978. (It s not too clear what the chro-
ness was over and done with by the time I got here in
nology is in some of those years!) She s announcing
 67. In  67 the burning issue was race relations. The
the creation of a new order, and she considers herself
year book for that year [ 67  68] was virtually taken
RDNA. Do you have any comments on that kind of
over by essays about the relationship between races.
thing, or are these higher orders or not? Where is that
Oddly enough, that seems to have been restricted pretty
for you?
much to that one year, I think largely because while I
was at Carleton we never did have much in the way of
Dick: I ve never understood this penchant for creating or-
a minority student population. I think that s changed
ders. It s largely a Neo-Pagan phenomenon, the orders
somewhat now, but we had a few token blacks, and
created beyond the first [set of] higher orders. The first
that was it.
higher orders, I think, were created simply because
Frangquist and Nelson wanted a bigger piece of the
But increasingly as the years went on, certainly by the
action. The higher orders have never been important
time I was a sophomore, when Joe came back from
to me as part of my religious experience. Do I recog-
Israel, the burning issue, bar none, was Vietnam. It
nize these as orders of Reformed Druidism? Well, I
consumed every aspect of our lives, from watching the
think probably Orders Four through Ten I will acknowl-
body counts on TV to the Damoclean sword of the
edge as part of Reformed Druidism because they re in
draft hanging over every male one of us. The death of
the Chronicles. Are they an important part of Reformed
somebody whose name I ve forgotten, and whom I never
Druidism? Not at all. Are the other high orders impor-
knew, who was the only Carleton grad I know of that
tant to Reformed Druidism? Well, they re not to my
was killed in Vietnam these were all impinging on us
Reformed Druidism. To their members they may be
all the time.
important; far be it from me to gainsay that. I m per-
fectly willing to live and let live. Am I going to refuse to
The election of 1968 really galvanized the campus, and
have anything to do with somebody that comes to a
large numbers of students went on buses to Wisconsin
service wearing the insignia of such an order? No, not
to help in the primaries for Gene McCarthy. Many of
at all. I don t feel the need to wear my insignia; it doesn t
my close friends, in fact, went on that. I did not, be-
bother me one way or the other if they want to. It s just
cause, I think, at that time I was still a Republican. I
not part of my view of Druidism. I know they re there;
had come to campus in  67 supporting the war. It did
certainly to me they re not important.
not take long to change my mind. (This was quite apart
from worrying about the draft, although my mother
Eric: OK, I want to do a radical shift of where we ve been,
certainly did! It hadn t yet really crossed my mind that
and return you to college and talk a little bit about
I myself could possibly be drafted. This changed later
some of the other things that were going on at Carleton
on!)
while you were there, possibly as they relate to you as
Arch-Druid, and possibly not. For instance, in May of
When it became evident that Nixon was not going to
1970 the college has its Strike for several days follow-
wind down the war in Vietnam, there was a dramatic
ing the invasion of Cambodia. As when I m doing an
change of attitude on campus, I believe, and people
interview with anybody who was here at that time, I m
became radicalized in a way that heretofore had not
interested in knowing your perspective on that and how
been.
it affected you, what part you may have played. This is
turning into a long question, but I noticed, I guess it
My junior year was the year of the Strike. I was in-
must have been in the Black Book, you had a poem or
volved as a member of the CSA government: I was a
a chant  In Time of War, with the notation that it was
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